This Wednesday, I had the pleasure to sit down for an interview with Jeff Durm, co-owner of
Buck Creek Winery. Jeff owns Buck Creek along with his wife Kelly and mother-in-law Josette. In the four vintages Buck Creek has produced, they have won numerous awards, including four gold medals at this year’s Indy Wine Festival, not to mention numerous silvers and bronzes. I’ve discussed before how friendly these folks are, but Jeff was gracious enough to give forty-five minutes of his time to an internet blogger to discuss Indiana wines, for which I am grateful. Even better for him, his winery is doing such great things that mere word of mouth is bringing people in, and he needs no help from me. For my tasting notes from Buck Creek, please click
here.
When I sat down with Jeff, Josette watched the counter in case someone came in. She also added a few words when she needed to. I also had the pleasure of speaking with her a little afterwards, and wish we could have talked more. A delightful lady, who reminds me of a stereotypical kindly grandmother with the heart of gold.
Here are the highlights of our interview:
Can you tell us what you did before you entered the wine business?
I was a police officer with the Marion County Sheriff’s Department for twenty-three years. My wife, who is co-owner, was also a Lieutenant in the Sheriff’s Department. My mother-in-law is co-owner as well.
So you used your pension to fund the winery?Exactly. I wanted to wait-we planted our vineyard 18 years ago. We could have started our winery earlier, but I wanted to get a pension so that if we didn’t sell any wine, or if no one liked our wine, then I would still be able to put our kids through school and survive.
How many children do you have?I have two boys, one is 18 and one is 14.
What led you to winemaking?(
Laughs.) Um, there is my wife’s version and there is my version. My wife’s version is that she bought me a winemaking kit twenty years ago and then molded me out a lump of clay to be the man that I am today.
My story is that my relatives were farmers in the Elwood, Indiana area. I always liked going up there, visiting the farm, as a kid, and I thought, boy, it would be neat to have some land and a pole barn and a couple of cats running around. We don’t have the cats but we have the pole barn now.
Based on what I have seen, winemakers tend to be a pretty collegial bunch, but it seems to be even more so in Indiana. What kind of support did you receive when you said you wanted to start a winery?Oh, yeah. I basically went to all of the wineries and talked to the winemakers. I went to Château Thomas part-time. Actually when I went in there, they said they weren’t hiring. I said I wanted to learn how to make wine and work for them, and they gave me a look, like “that’s very nice.” But then I said, “I’ll work for free.” And they said, “You’re hired.” And that is when I started my internship. I worked there a couple of days a week, whenever they needed me. They would give me some bottles and corks, maybe some juice, ten gallons or so whenever it came in. I learned a lot about the tanks, pumps and barrels and running some tests. Just the little things that really helped me out.
In the wine industry in Indiana, everybody is extremely helpful. I could name twenty names of people who’ve helped me. I’ve bought stainless steel tanks from Ted Huber at Huber’s. I bought a really nice older press from Bill Oliver, who is extremely helpful. In fact, we still buy juice every once in a while. He buys it by the tanker load and brings it in, and we buy 500 gallons of it every once in a while. Things that we can’t get with our connections now. Dave Schrodt from Brown County has helped tremendously when I’ve had questions. With all of the guys, there’s really not what I call competition with each other. We try to help each other out, and I try to help out the new guys if I can. I’ve got a guy working for me now, part-time, who wants to start a winery on the west side. (
Laughs.) For some reason I’ve got to pay him. I don’t get the same internship with him. But he gets to watch me, and the mistakes that I’ve made, he won’t make. So, it is an industry where we do help each other out a lot.
Starting out, what mistake did you make that you would tell an aspiring winemaker never to make?As far as the vineyard, my goal was to try twelve or fourteen varieties on four acres of land instead of concentrating on four or five varieties. What happens is you end up with a hundred vines of this and a hundred vines of that. The situation we were in, a winery doesn’t want to buy a quarter ton of grapes, they want a minimum of a ton of grapes. Otherwise, it’s not worth it to fire up their press. I would say concentrate on a smaller number of varietals.
There’s a lot of money involved in the wine business. Go into it knowing you are eventually going to spend a pretty substantial amount of money to get it going. So be prepared for that.
How many acres do you have out here?
We have four and a half acres of vines, and we have twelve acres of property here. My mother-in-law and father-in-law and my wife and I together own twelve acres. My mother-in-law is part owner, and my father-in-law helps out and is a great help.
And you also source your grapes?About 25% of our wines are made from our vineyard. A little over 50% of the wine we make is from Indiana fruit. We do buy apple cider from Peru, Indiana. The remaining 48% or so comes from California vineyards and the Finger Lakes in New York. So we are a nice 50/50 blend of Indiana versus the rest of the country.
What varieties do you have in your vineyard?We have fourteen. We have Stueben, Concord, Catawba, Chancellor, Chambourcin, Seyval Blanc, Traminette, Cayuga White, Vidal Blanc, and Chardonelle. We have two varieties that were just named; they were test varieties with Cornell’s Geneva Test Station. For years they had numbers. We planted them about sixteen years ago, and they now have names. They are Noiret and Corot Noir. {Me: For more on these varieties, check out
this article.} We also have Cabernet Franc, which is actually the first vinifera we’ve ever had. It’s a test plot of fifty of those vines. We are going to blend that in with our dry reds. We are hoping we can grow some good vinifera here as well, but we will see.
{Me: I miscounted and told Jeff he had named fourteen varieties. I will edit the article if I can find out what the other variety is.}
You’ve discussed this a little bit, but tell me about the evolution of the vineyards and your future plans for them.
We started eighteen years ago with an acre and a half. We’ve planted a half-acre here and a half-acre here every few years, and we are now at four and a half acres. We may have a few more varieties, but just being myself, my sons, and my family, we don’t want to get too much bigger. What we are trying to do is create a really good relationship with some vineyards around the state and in California and New York so we can get quality fruit. It’s great to grow it but there is a point where it gets to be a little too much. So I think that right in that five acre range is about where we want to be.
How many cases do you produce a year?Last year we produced 10,000 gallons, this year we produced 12,000 gallons, so around the 4,000 case range.
So you are expanding by around 20% a year?It’s been a bigger jump than that, since we’ve only been open 2 ½ years. We started out with 1850 gallons our first vintage, and this is our forth vintage. You actually have to have a vintage before you can open the winery. The second year we did 6800 gallons. Last year, 10,000. This year, 12,000.
Do you have any estimates about your plans for next year?I’m not really sure with this economy. We definitely plan on growing. In the back of the building, in our production area, we plan on adding about 1600 square feet. Hopefully next fall or in the year after that, we can add on to the front of the building, increase our tasting room. We want an oak tasting bar like we have now, but we want a 360º tasting room, and have tables that go down the sides of the room for at least 50 people to seat for events, and maybe a fireplace on the far end.
So keeping the same shell?Yes, just moving forwards and backwards. We will be putting a loading dock on the back of the building so it will be easier for the limited amount of semis we have that bring in glass and such. We are in the process right now of building a 20x30 shelter, with a cedar roof and the 10x10 oak beams and a colored concrete floor. We will have a patio on the backside to have tables and chairs. That is what we are trying to complete before Christmas, slowly but surely.
What are the advantages Indiana has for growing grapes?As far as climate, I don’t know that there are any great advantages. There are advantages and disadvantages. There tend to be higher acid wines here, but in California, because they have so much heat and solar hours, it depletes the acids so the wines are flabbier. They are a lot more maybe richer in some respects, but you also lose some of that acidity. So the sweeter wines we have here really match well with the acids. That is why a lot more sweeter wines are produced in this area of the country.
One the advantages we have is that we don’t have 600 wineries, just 35, so there is not that competition I spoke of earlier. It’s not a physical advantage, but surely it helps us.
What about the challenges you face every year growing the grapes?Our challenge is that this is a family run business. There are only so much of us to go around. We are at that point where we need to look at finding quality people to help us. Trying to find the income to hire some extra people to delegate some of the jobs that I have. Our demand is up this year over last year, but our physical limitations make it really tough. Harvest was really tough this year, but we got it done. 12,000 gallons is a lot of wine to make with just a couple of people. But as we grow, we will be able to have some good people help us.
Besides what you have already mentioned, where do you see the winery at in a year?I just want a steady growth, more room in the manufacturing area, and more space would be extremely helpful. The one thing we are really lacking is a space for people to come in groups and a facility for people to have events here. Bridal showers or events like that. Our wines are really good; we just need the space to accommodate more functions.
What about in the space of 5-10 years, do you see any future expansions?In the space of 5-10 years, what I would love to do is to get my kids involved. My oldest son is going to Purdue next year to study business and food science. We are going to try to fashion a degree in those areas, because the enology department is part of the food science department. I would love to see them come in and help and maybe one day have the desire to take over eventually. We want to keep making good wines and remain a family business.
What do you see as the trends in Indiana wine?I think the trend we will see will be more away from the sweeter wines and to the semi-dry to drier wines. That will come because everything moves from the West and East to the middle of the country, and as palettes evolve, they’ll like the drier wines. I think now we are around 75% sweeter wines, and I think over the next ten years that will shift more towards the 50/50 range.
I noticed that compared to a lot of other Indiana wineries, sweeter wines don’t make up as high a percentage on your list. Is that personal preference?
My preference is to make what people like. There are a few winemakers in Indiana that I have a lot of respect for, and they believe in making wines that they like, and that is pretty much their goal. If people like their wines, great, but if people don’t like their wines, then, so sorry. My goal is to make wines that people enjoy, and we will evolve as people’s palettes evolve. We will be able to gauge that. We are coming out with more and more drier wines, and it takes time to be able to source vineyards that produce quality grapes for dry wines, and we are doing that.
Do you think fruit wines will continue to play such a prominent place on Indiana wine lists?
There will always be a spot for fruit wines. I think that what we will do is eliminate the ones that don’t sell as well and have one or two that are really our standards. Our blackberry has been a great seller. Our red raspberry apple, which we mull this time of year, has been a great seller. I think those two we will always have, and others will evolve.
Any new wines on the horizon?We made Merlot a couple of years ago and sold out very quickly. We didn’t make it last year, and I regret that, because we had a lot of people come in for Merlot. In this harvest, we brought more Merlot grapes from two different vineyards that we are going to blend together. I think it will be really good.
We are also coming out with a rhubarb wine that is on the sweeter end. That is a big seller at several of the Indiana wineries, and after tasting it at some of those, it has a very interesting flavor and mouth feel that I think will be enjoyable. That will be introduced in the next couple of months. I am really happy with our Traminette. We just started making it last year. That is a Gewürztraminer hybrid, cross between that and Seyval Blanc. I think that is a really good grape to grow in our vineyard and other Indiana vineyards. The Traminette we have now is a blend from three other vineyards. It’s from Oliver’s Creekbend vineyard, we bought some juice from them, from our vineyard, and there is a beautiful little vineyard in Lafayette that we bought grapes from as well. I think it grow well all across the state. It is probably one of the top two white grapes for this part of the country.
If climate wasn’t an issue, which varietals would you dream of growing?Oh, I would love to grow Cabernet Sauvignon, Pinot Noir, Merlot, and Chardonnay of course. I would love to be able to grow a Bordeaux blend here, but it’s not happening. Down in Southern Indiana, Huber does a good job of growing some of the viniferas, but it is very questionable here. But as I told people before, this is where I was born and raised, and this is where I am going to make my stand. That’s just the way it is.
Do you keep track of what percentage of your sales come from inside the state or are local?I would say 99.8% comes from inside the state. There are only a few states we ship to. We ship very little wine at all.
Is that mainly due to the shipping laws?Shipping laws are the primary reason, but people also like to visit wineries and buy while they are there. We don’t get that many requests, and quite honestly, we just kind of try to stay away from it [shipping] if we can. We can barely keep up with the sales we have now. People ask us about retail and where we sell our wines. We just sell what we can out of here. We run out of wines all the time, so there is no reason to go through a wholesaler and do that at this point. Now, as we grow, that will change.
Do you see any relief in sight from the shipping laws as they currently stand?I don’t know. I surely hope we get some relief, but with lobbying and all that, and all the money that is poured into the industry, it is just going to be a mess for years to come. I just hope the laws don’t get worse.
What are your thoughts on sampling fees?That’s an interesting point. I’m the President of the Indy Wine Trail. We just had a meeting a week ago and there was talk of whether we should implement some tasting fees. One of the wineries, Chateau Thomas, does charge a fee, I think, after four or five tastes. My opinion is that we should not be the first wine trail in Indiana to charge fees. There are a couple of wineries in the state that charge fees, but I just think we should not be the first to go down that road, because there will be some resistance. Now in Ohio, it is the law that you have to charge a fee. It is a token fee, but you have to charge some fee, you just can’t give wine away.
I just think it is the perfect fit to be able to come to here or any other of the Indiana wineries, taste the wine, and see what you like. When you go to the store and see a pretty kangaroo on a label, take it home and you can’t drink it, then you are not doing yourself a service. I think the atmosphere, being able to go back and check out the tanks, get a tour if people want to see, and being able to see how we make the wine- I think being able to taste the wines, and buy what you like is a big part of our success. It is a perfect fit for our industry.
Are there any future plans or hopes for a distillery?I don’t think so. Now, my son, if he takes over in ten years, that might be something that he would want to do. There is only one distillery in the state right now, and that’s Huber’s.
Do you think distilleries will continue to expand in Indiana?
I think so. There will be several more come in the future, but we are happy where we are at.
Any thoughts or plans for organic wines?No. Not that I wouldn’t love to, and we’ve had a lot of requests for it, but the things you have to do to make wine organically make it tough to make a quality wine that is going to last.
Who designed your labels?
That is an artist from Brown County by the name of Bill Zimmerman, pretty famous nature artist. He did some Oliver labels, and we contacted him probably twelve years ago, long before we had the winery. We knew we wanted to do the winery, and he actually painted a picture the size of our label. We didn’t think of it at the time, but the animal, our buck, has been a good fit for us, and he did a great job for us on that label.
Any inspiration for the label besides the fact you are next to Buck Creek?We had originally thought-there were two names that were finalists. One was William Lloyd Cellars. William and Lloyd are actually my son’s middle names, but as we thought about it, it just seemed like it was somewhat pretentious. And then it was Buck Creek, and we thought there is Buck Creek Playhouse, Buck Creek Nursery, we sit on Buck Creek, and a big part of our business is going to be local.
People will come to us as opposed to going to Oliver or somewhere distant with gas prices and whatever. If we make good wines and we are nice to people, and we treat them well, our business will grow. In fact, I watched an interview on one of the FYI stations, and they were interviewing Magic Johnson. He owns 130 or so Starbucks and movie theatres in LA and the Bronx. His one comment was “you just have to treat people the way they need to be treated, and with a good open heart.” I thought that was very interesting, because that is our business model as well. Treat people like they’re family every day. My mother-in-law treats people a little better than I do though (
Laughs).
Who maintains your website?My father-in-law and Jason Sisk. He was the webmaster at IUPUI for several years and now he is out on his own. He does a great job.
How important is your website to your overall business plan?I think it’s real important. We have people in all the time that state it was the website that brought them to us. I am not very web savvy, but my father-in-law is very good at that, and he makes sure we maintain that the proper way. I think our website needs a little improvement, but it’s doing very well.
Josette: We communicate with people through our website. They always want to know when certain wines come out, and we just tell them to keep an eye on the website. When we run out of wine, we let them know. When we have something new, we let them know. It’s updated whenever it needs to be.
Me: I hoped you enjoyed this long interview. I also had the pleasure of speaking with the pair for a few minutes afterwards. I do have to relate that Josette, right as I was leaving, leaned in close to me, and said, “You know, we get people in here from California every once in a while a little skeptical about our wines. They leave here loving our wines and our atmosphere.”
Of that, I have no doubt.
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